Saab press review
In every family there are black sheep ... who are little loved. Sometimes with good reason or as a prejudice. An unloved car in the Saab scene is the 900 II, which suffers from the GM and Opel stigma. This is unfair, because the 900 II is actually a very passable car. I think - also means the classic car practice in the 11/2015 edition.
The Swede from GM…
The article is well written, the author F. Schobelt Saab and Sweden do not seem unfamiliar. Odin should turn a blind eye, I like that. The Classic car practice The theme works with love for the brand, and yes, the 900 II as an underdog has finally earned his chance before it is finally too late.
Because the Saab inventory is shrinking, the brand is becoming increasingly rare. Particularly rare are the two Saabs, which are the topic at Auto Bild Motorhome. A magazine whose existence as a non-RV driver hardly has on the radar.
Two great boxes ...
The issue 4 / 2015 reports about the Saab motorhomes from Ramsele. Only two copies were built, author Richard Holz has researched their exciting story. He is a Swedish insider, studied there, speaks the local language, has a weakness for cars from the north.
The story is exciting! If only because we can discover unknown Saab history. The booklet is a buying and collecting tip. The little-known and hardly documented history of Saab motorhomes, you can read it here.
While the story of RVs is a clear blog buy recommendation, the current issue of Autobild Classic does not fare well.
More cars ...
It's about cheap young timers in the 200 hp league. You already guessed it, a Saab 9000 is playing. In the short text, garnished with press photos of the Anniversary plus interior of an earlier model year, author Martin Puthz writes about alleged Saab 9000 bargains. It's not easy to find a good 9000. High mileage, maintenance backlog. And the big Saab is worth more than its ridiculous price suggests. So far right. Except for the thing with the price tag.
The price for a good 3 condition: 2.200 € ... Yes mei, where can you buy it? Let's go for it…
This is how it happens when you are not really familiar with the subject. The price idea for a good 9000 in the 200 hp class is simply wrong. Because honest vehicles for that money haven't been around for years, and if they did, each of us would have put half a dozen away. The prices are provided by Classic Data, not by the author himself. This is a salvation of honor for Mr. Puthz. Judgment from Saab's point of view of the booklet: Leave it. On the shelf !
203196 km, 1 engine, never opened, oil change always all 10 ts km and only synthetic oil, Saab 900, year of construction 1996, R special edition, Conclusion:
no charcoal found when removing the oil pan and cleaning the oil strainer, normal signs of wear. It continues to drive and the R 900 is on the way to the classic car icon.
So, better not believe everything that is written - if it does; buy better VW.
Daniel
That may be the case with yours because you have cared for him so. But all the other owners and especially new owners of the models where the problem was the oil carbon had to part with it after so many kilometers on the speedometer and a residual value of exactly the amount that a new engine should cost. Maybe this is also the reason for the unacceptability of the 902 and its successor, the 9-3 I? Especially after there are forums here on the Net that mentioned this faulty construction and its consequences….
The theme is well known and chewed. I do not think it's helpful to post this on every postive opinion, right? There is a world beyond the 901, and a few things came along really well and are still fun today.
Tom, you have to bring the subject of faulty design (s) to 902 and 9-3 I. Also and certainly then, if as here, almost everything is presented positively by the 902. This creates the impression for prospective buyers that this model like any other Saab model is unproblematic and quote from you on 18. November 2015 at 2: 14 PM
“The bad reputation comes from negative press (partly justified), a first crash test that ended badly. Then the vicious circle: Cheap used cars with a practical hatchback, no money is invested in maintenance, no fans who like the car. There are bad ADAC statistics etc ... "
The fact that prospective buyers are now jumping off for a 902 or a 9-3 I is not only due to people like me who are only interested in pre-GM Saabs. Likewise, the general decline of Saab in the classic and youngtimers area, simply because many no longer buy these models. There it is also because (and I have already posted this here several times) that Saab failed decades ago to build up a classic car division like Mercedes and Porsche and to ensure the supply of spare parts for older models (also and especially after they were fully sold to GM). So there is a lack of important spare parts, most of which are vital for the vehicle's survival, and of workshops such as Lorenz in Kiel, etc., which (from my point of view also split into pre-GM and GM time) could ensure repairs. Not every owner of a Saab (and I also include the 9-3, 9-5, 9-4X etc.) can be a screwdriver in front of the gentleman, let alone have a lift and tools….
This is my last comment on this topic.
I see a completely different problem. If the intervals of 10.000 kilometers are met, the 902 will be easy. If you do not do that, you have the problem described. That's the point, and has been on the blog several times, and repeatedly described. Anyone who is informed about the 902 can read it, that's good.
Unfortunately, we Saab fans tend to really write our products in the ground, for other brands with far greater weaknesses, this happens much less often. Why? Are these fans less critical, more loyal to the brand, less eager to celebrate their own demise? My thoughts, a small hint how to deal with problems.
I'm not complaining about the resale value. I'm just wondering what it's all about? A car is there to drive, whether daily or with seasonal license plate. I only take my head if you do not notice the chance of a really good copy just because one of the cars had too many previous owners (which does not have to say anything). I even go so far as to say that those who only look to see if a car has run a little and will rise in value later are not fans, but rather the gravediggers. If Saab stands for great turbocharged engines, I personally have none of this 11 12 engine from XNUMX months under a tarp in the garage is just so the mileage is not six-digit.
In addition, you put the two groups as if group one is looking for the good ones while the other one just wants to drive and the rest is more or less indifferent. On the contrary, I am in Group Two, but the most important thing to me is always the technical condition, followed by the optics. For me, only vehicles come into question that were technically and visually above average, the rest is initially matter (kilometers, previous owners, etc.) To the car, I make the same requirements as the group one, only to the around it just not.
But who wants to do it differently, of course, too.
Technically speaking, with today's oils there is no compelling reason for 10 intervals. Unless you only drive 000 km / year. This can also be seen in the fact that the 10-liter engine has intervals of around 000 km without any problems after the last adjustments and the installation of the service interval display.
From a financial point of view, the difference is simply whether you have a fixed date in the garage every 35 months or about once a year with an annual mileage of 40-000 km. Nowadays, SAAB bases can no longer be found on every corner.
My 9-5 Aero will soon have reached its 300 km. Until then, that makes a difference of around 000.- compared to its predecessor.
Whether that matters, everyone should decide for themselves.
The oil is not, the engine B205 and B235 to MY04 are in KGE and location of the Kats simply a faulty design, who runs with 30tkm intervals is his own fault when the engine goes up. Excessive long sticking can minimize but not rule out the risk. An oil change costs much less than a new engine. 35 € for 5L 0W40 Mobil1, 6 € for the filter and 50ct for the seal. Even if you change 3x per year, that's just 120 € per year. That should be in !?
That is exactly what I wanted to say in my first comment above. Sure if you max. Drive 5000 km in summer (convertible) and the remaining 5000 km with the second / third car in winter, then it cannot come to the damage that I and Daniel and 9-5 Aero mentioned. Only that is what drivers and owners like GP362 do not want until the first damage (engine oxide) has occurred….
900S16V, now let's not argue here, we all meet here for the same interests.
My hat always bursts when the 902 / 9-3 I series is to be defeated with the Opel prejudices and that from “my own ranks”. Tom also wrote a post about it. The very first series 902 may have had defects, but they were fixed: great heating, better brakes than in the 9000, etc. The engines from the 9000CS to the 9-3I have many identical parts and, with proper maintenance, are good for many 100.000 km without any problems.
It's good to have SAAB from all series. My brother drives z. For example, 901 for decades, the 900S I think is really chic. Personally, I do not want to have one and I would not comment on it because I have no idea about it.
In that sense ... peace ?!
Sorry but if this is about the 902 and the successor, the 9-3 I, not only advantages but also disadvantages should be mentioned and not concealed. It's just the case that the 902 and the 9-3 I were built specifically for Saab, apart from the engines, unfortunately noticed a few quirks / errors of the Opel Vectra in these years, including the floor pan on the 9-3, so that the Kat in the Was close to the oil pan and had exacerbated the problem of oil sludge / oil carbon…. Incidentally, the 9000er didn't have the problem over the years because it still had its own floor pan. Peace.
I am also talking about a design error for engines up to year of construction around 2005 and of possible intervals after displaying 30 km from this year of construction. There is no recommendation to extend the intervals of older engines to 000 km. See above, if you can read and do it, you have an advantage.
Adventurous bill with 120 Euro costs for 3 change per year. Since every reputable merchant would set up the hackles.
At 40 km per year it would actually be 000 years and over 4 years 8 but we don't want to be so petty.
35 euros for 5L of oil? With me stand / stood sfr. 27.5 per liter on the bill. This is not even SAAB-specific - our other vehicles have similar amounts. And - yes, that's right, you don't save on oil.
What about the working time and all the trappings that the trader has to charge / charge at full cost? From sfr. 150 / h is one in the CH here.
Arrival and loss of working hours not included.
That makes a big difference whether you can drive intervals of 10 km or 000 km.
The bottom line is that everyone can calculate as they want - or not - when it comes to a hobby.
Well, SAAB has responded and made changes. With me, SAAB would have flown through the grid with the old design at the last procurement in 2007 in any case. Would have been a pity about the beautiful vehicle.
Hello Troll fan,
There are certainly x different opinions and theories about oil (even from people who have never driven these models), but I have personally always thought it this way:
My normal route to work is short haul (14Km federal highway), long haul occasionally occurs. So on my 9000 CSE and the 900 II, I drove synthetic oil (Valvoline) right from the beginning and did all 10.000Km oil and filter changes myself. I do not think much of long intervals, that's saving on the wrong end.
The later bought 9-3I and 9000CS I have also immediately switched to synthetic oil and change the same. It was found after a short time that no black Pampe more depends on the dipstick, but after about 30.000Km (three changes) slightly transparent golden brown oil, as with the other two.
The four engines ran between 172.000 and 230.000, are in top shape and have no visible oil consumption. The 9000s are turbos, the two “little ones” are suckers - no difference was found on this topic.
Hi Sebastian,
thanks for your information. He does not scream, does not humming and does not scream. He purrs like a kitten and I am very satisfied
Hello from the far north!
So, as I recall, only the turbocharged engines were really affected.
The suckers had much less problems there, even if they brought a little less fun driving (my sensation).
In order to come back to your question, so if the car does not yell at the stand or cries or hums quite funny, I think nothing to do.
But if that is the case with you, you should go to the dealer or workshop you trust as soon as possible to have the oil pan removed and the oil strainer cleaned (great apprentice work ...).
At the end there were also other oil sieves etc. which did not really bring anything.
What may be important to know that there was never a diesel in the Saab 900 II.
As far as I know, the 2.2 TID was only available from the Saab 9-3 I and was quite sturdy except for the leakage lines, although it was quite rough when idling.
The 900 II, as far as I know, had an 2.0 I; an 2.0 with Trionic 5 / red cassette and a 2,5 liter from the BMW / Opel Regal with the modest timing belt and still modest spark plug change (better absolute crap).
In this sense, a nice Thursday still.
Here again the Trollifan: After reading the article in this classic car newspaper, I also got nervous and talked to 2 workshops about it. Both told me independently of each other that the problem with the oil sludge only occurred in the turbo versions. After the many comments of the last days, again my request to you all: should I have a look?
Please don't spread the rumor here as well; certain engines have a problem with oil sludge. They never had. The problem is oil carbon! This clogs the sieve and leads to engine death. People who have driven their Saab a lot of long haul and very little short haul are usually affected much less often. My oil pan was removed for the first time at 260tkm and it would have even been air ...
Sorry Tom, but that there are no more reasonable 2200s for 9000 € is not true and the article in the press is quite close to reality. The problem that creates the impression is that more and more technically less-versed Saab enthusiasts want to quickly put a 9k aside, but cannot assess the condition of a vehicle themselves. A missing service booklet is a major defect. I myself recently tried to sell a fully equipped 9000 2.3FPT in above-average condition. I wanted 2500 €. Unfortunately, the connoisseurs are all already taken care of and all the (ex) Saab new car drivers who drive to the FSH to change the bulb themselves have got out at the latest when I unfortunately could not prove that the car was a maximum of 2nd hand and the service booklet was lost at the previous owner. I handed it in for 1300 €… The vehicle is now back online… for over 5700 €.
I sprinkle some food for thought. Technically less savvy Saab lover? Thousands of owners of classics and young timers have little idea of the matter? They still love their cars, they have fun. They drive to the workshop, take care of orders. OK then. If we want to at least occasionally see a Saab on the road in the coming years, we need workshops that deal with Saab classics. And they need customers. Saab survives only if as many businesses as possible can secure a livelihood. Model is Mercedes with the classic centers.
In the course of the Anna project, I communicated a lot with experts on the subject of youngtimers. A 9000 is a relatively “young” car, the criteria are clear. Unclear history, no maintenance records (checkbook !!), many owners, high mileage? Is value-reducing, not a collector's item. The market is tough, as are the ratings. We only buy what is really good. Then a 3 state can cost 5 to 6.000 €.
I cannot leave your objection uncommented. If I have no idea about technology, I take someone with me to see who can assess the condition of the car. Is it really just about any increase in value and interesting stories of a car or do you buy a 9k because it is a “great” car? People buy according to their condition, nothing else. Anyone who buys a car because it had a great previous owner or because a low mileage increases its value is buying superficially and is not really a lover of the model, mM. I have already seen some finished 1st hand 901 and 9000s and some very well maintained 5th hand vehicles. Seriously, what do I care about any evaluation or expert (except in the case of damage). I prefer to buy a Saab without a checkbook and also like 5th hand when I look at the car, find out and also notice that the car has received regular, competent attention than any “checkbook-tended” copy from the dealer at which I am on the On the way back the engine bursts because, according to the factory specifications, the car only got fresh oil every 20 tons and unfortunately the oil strainer is now closed. But everyone likes what they want, so there will still be real bargains. But not for the "checkbook buyers"
Daniel, that's exactly what I meant. There are two worlds that should accept each other. Or at least try it. Some want a restored, or very well-kept Saab. You care about history, mileage, and all that. Also the vehicle value.
Then there are people who like to buy from 5th hand, the mileage does not matter, as long as the substance is correct. A, as you say, “awesome” box. That's okay too, and I can understand both angles very well.
Only if you belong to the group two, no whining about a bad resale is announced.
This is an interesting aspect that I have never really thought about. There are probably collectors and drivers. The collector rather has the Euros in mind, stingy with Km (group 1) and the driver enjoys and moves the SAAB daily (group 2).
I think I belong more to group 2. Although - Daniel is right - there can be great cars in this group too, and especially with the 9000, a few kilometers are not always a good sign.
There are just fans who move their Saab only in good weather, with seasonal characteristics. That's not a few. The brand is transforming, there is a change.
The situation with the 9000 is still relatively relaxed. With patience we find beautiful grandpa specimens that are in top condition. Buy, put away, the value will rise.
A well-maintained copy with high mileage is not good for it. Since you can only buy cheap, drive, have fun. Is nice too bad, right?
It asks me questions such as, for whom you put away?
How long does such a car have to stand?
Is there something else left?
Does the alleged increase in value pay off against the cost of a really good parking space, which is absolutely necessary for this?
How long does the partial replenishment work?
I also have two that I only drive in summer and when the weather is nice. But then she wants to drive and have fun with it, as Franken Troll writes - I'm alive now!
Otherwise burn or sell the descendants of the things in the worst case one day and you have not had anything except parking space costs.
I ask myself these questions sometimes when I get one of the two out of the hall - difficult.
The situation with the 9000 can be understood here in Berlin well. In 1-2 years, 900 has been replaced by 9000 in the usual in-quarters. SAAB is cool, but the group of people has little money to ensure the vehicles meaningful in the substance. In a few years, the 9000 will be just as finished and used up as the 900, which will go to junk.
I would never buy an 9000 without a clarified past and proof, and I'll screw myself. Why should I go to such a place? My current 9k is from Switzerland. First hand, meticulously maintained, no service left out, all stamps. The Swiss have understood how it works. I like to put 5000 Fränkli on the table.
Tom has done a good job with the ANNA project on how to handle maintenance vehicles, and the courage and commitment of the blog is admirable. The blog is traded and not only hot air produced.
If the use of 9k disappeared in a few years, prices will go up significantly. Because there is hardly anything left. If you are clever, you can secure an Anni or Aero with the least possible mileage or get something from Switzerland.
What a wild discussion here ...
A veritable (oil) mud fight. But what about the two great boxes? You have to pay tribute!
I am not a caravanist at all, but these two are so cuddly and cranky that I immediately want a Swedish summer vacation with one of them.
Again and again amazing, what is there so much to discover in the SAAB story and beautiful, that the blog knows so well to entertain.
We had a 1994 and a 1996 900II, both vacuum cleaners almost in bookkeeping equipment, which was already very generous compared to the competition. The 1996 was quieter with 3Ps less and a balance shaft more. If I remember correctly, the first crash tests were at the level of the C-Class at the time and pioneers in some things. ... just rummaged around in the fund, there was a special print from the AMS from 1993. (Tom ... see the mailbox 😉)
Even today, I think the body is modern and one of the most timeless designs in automotive history. Practically she was anyway. For 9-31, the clear line of the 902 has been watered down and the car is beefier (but still nice!) Technically, the 9-31 is certainly more mature. If I did not already have 4 SAAB, I might get one more!
Thanks, that's perfect! Here is the test report, a special issue of Saab Germany, as Download.
More than 20 years ago he was disappointing for a brand new Saab, today he reads a lot better.
It is exactly like that
True, good design. I'm still crying for it every time I open the estate hatchback. I want a hatchback car again. But not as one like the Audi A5, where there is no additional loading space above the luggage compartment cover.
Just googling: saab steering clamps
Before the “facelift” to the 900-9 I, the 3 II had and still have a few things that were not typical of Saab, such as a poorly functioning heater, many Opel engines, the floor pan from Opel, etc ... The Saab affine which the successor the 9 -3 I bought, was allowed to dismantle and clean the oil sump every 2nd oil change, otherwise the engine was exidus prematurely… ..But everyone knows that, isn't it?
Many engines? I count only one engine on the 900 II, which was not from Saab.
And it is not the case that with every 9-3 I the oil sump has to be removed every second oil change.
Don't suppress the diesel! They came from GM-Powertrain here in Kaiserslautern .... Just like the V6 for the Vectra ect.
There was no diesel in the 900 II ... And the V6 comes from England ...
I mean the 9-3 I as a response to Anddeu's comment and as an “improvement” to the 900 II on the part of engines (diesel) and the V6.
Okay, and I already started to doubt
One has to add that the V6 was a nice engine, totally underrated. The V6 was also in Omega and other GM models, with punctual timing belt change very durable!
But with the 9-3 I, removing the oil pan every second oil change would / is recommended, at least to inspect the oil sludge….
Dear 900S16V, The allegations that you give here of you, lack of any expertise.
We have had a 900 II for a long time, a 9-3I petrol engine for a long time and now the “bad” 9-3I 2,2 TID in our fleet, so I think I can reasonably judge these models. The petrol engines are original SAAB 4-cyl. like in the 9000 and with those neither the 900II (2,3i) nor the 9-3I ever had an oil pan off, so really….
The 2,2 Diesel is developed by Steyr-Puch for GM. He is a bit loud, but just as unbreakable as the gasoline and another honest diesel!
Meanwhile, the three are so old (15-19), that of course something breaks, but not on the powertrain. They stand in the reliability of the 9000 nothing. The only visible Opel part is the exterior mirror adjustment and sometimes annoying, otherwise everything SAAB!
Sometimes you might want to look beyond the 901 horizon before settling on the other models, as the heinous press once did.
Well then, the reports of many Saab 900 II owners in many different forums (not just Saab forums) on the subject of what was not done correctly on the 900 II and and on the 9-3 I on the subject of oil sludge are probably all just claims, one faction agrees of unbelievers regarding the Saab brand?
Thanks, there is nothing better for me and it sticks with: 1. 900 II 2,3i Convertible / 2. 900 II 2,0i Coupe and 3. 900 II 2,0i Turbo Coupe, all built 1995, just good and all just under 200 Tkm on the clock
But, but ... in the 900 II only the V6 came off the GM shelf, everything else was Saab original! The floor pan was modified so that it no longer had anything to do with Opel. You can still see the result today. The 9-3 I has been improved again, is still a safe car, the Vectra as the donor of the floor pan is considered unsafe on all roads 😉
It is well known that the subject of oil sludge in 4 cylinder engines has in fact not been solved by SAAB for years, although it was actually a trivial design error of crankcase ventilation and would have been easy to fix.
The customers were expected to have oil change intervals of 10 km when the others were already 000 km long. Those who did not stick to it most embarrassingly risked the engine's death. That didn't exactly do the reputation of the well-designed engines from SAAB well, caused the customers completely unnecessary costs and led to a number of broken SAAB's.
2 of our neighbors are therefore with their 9-5 he remained with engine damage. That would have been completely unnecessary, as it was with the 9000, 900, and 9 3ers with the 2.0 and 2.3 liter engines.
Between 2004 and 2005 the engine was then at Opel !!! revised. (I know a designer who was there). The effort for it should have been modest, the engine then still a class better and above all reliable.
The 9-5 has had a service interval display since then. In practice, intervals of around 30 km have resulted and the engine is as robust as one could have always expected.
In that sense, one has done the best job at GM times. I did not think that GM would still have a good hair.
That's the way it is! One who agrees with me on the point of oil sludge….
The used car reliability statistics are more likely to say that it is less reliable. The rumors that it had to appear in a “now or never” Ordre de Mufti from GM point in this direction, as does the “facelift” with somewhere between 900 and 1000 changes.
The 900 II have been decimated faster for my gut feeling than the 9-3 afterwards. I looked at it pretty well before I decided to buy an 9-3.
The bad call I can not do at all or is completely mistaken. I've been driving an 2 II SE convertible automatic with 900 PS and about, 150 K KM, for almost exactly 197 years.
I drove all other models from the 9000, over 2x 9-3 convertibles and a 9-5 station wagon 2.3 soft turbo. My vehicle is so reliable and it is a pleasure every time I sit in it. In the coming year it will be a youngtimer and I am already building the vehicle as an “oldtimer”. That's why I'm still looking for a complete set of leather furniture in beige and in the following year it will be partially lacquered and prepared.
The campers are great, thanks for the hint. Will be bought, otherwise I would have overlooked the issue.
Where does the bad reputation of 900 II come from?
Just because the V6 and the platform come from Opel doesn't mean the car has to be stamped as a GM product ...
With a 9-5 NG, nobody ever comes up with the idea to refer to it as Insignia, even though identical parts have been installed there.
The bad reputation comes from negative press (partly justified), a first crash test that ended badly. Then the vicious circle: Cheap used cars with a practical hatchback, no money is invested in maintenance, no fans who like the car. There are bad ADAC statistics etc ... The result: The 900 II are dying out. 🙁
... and I, as a contemporary witness, assert quite cheekily that the bad reputation did not come from bad press but above all from disappointed 901 drivers - who mercilessly and heatedly highlighted every weak point in the first series of the 902 as an indisputable faux pas. The 901 can and could do a lot better or at least as well as the 901 right from the start. Unfortunately, in keeping with the style of the time, it had received a very restrained, less polarizing styling (which could be corrected a bit with the facelift for the 9-3) and thus scored few points with its purely practical advantages over its predecessor and competitors. Somehow everyone found a point in the 902 that eventually led to the overall result “out of the question”. The fact that the floor pan of the Vectra / Calibra served as the starting point in the design computer for the development and was heavily modified according to Saab's ideas, that could be communicated quite well by the sales staff. Bad fading values in the brake test of the first series or poor quality of the parts already less and behind closed doors the customer was advised very early on to wait for the facelift. The few 902s that have survived in a reasonable condition are certainly worth protecting, but in my opinion the 9-3I corresponds more to what the Saab engineers have imagined as a successor to the 901 - after the 9000 failed here ...